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	<title>Comments on: A response to &#8216;The trouble with Atheism&#8217;</title>
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	<link>http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/</link>
	<description>Thoughts. Comment. Opinion.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: J D</title>
		<link>http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-8363</link>
		<dc:creator>J D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-8363</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I found this to be an interesting read. However, I see clear assumptions and generalizations made on the whole, when in fact some of the points are not as generalized as implied. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;While my time is short (heading out the door), I will say that for the most part, the conclusion is not without it's shortcomings. For instance, the assumption of the ten commandments and the line "thou shalt not kill". &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For a expanded generalization from the point that they should not commit any acts that would lead to any death, one could assume that even sacrificing animals was included in this. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But a realistic view of this is that these are the laws between Hebrews for a code of conduct to keep the laws of God. Can you really imply that God would prevent "his people" from killing when others sought their desimation?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;While it is not my intention to simply challange line by line, I will add only one more  oddity of perspective by the writer. There is a drawn conclusion that religion should keep it's hands off of the schools. This result still does not leave out the possibility for corruption of ideals, for it required much control of ideologies, and cencorship of concepts that challenge those ideals. In essence, you find that those children will ultimately be "programmed" to repel and oppose ideas of religion, and the people that harbor them. While this may be celebrated by many stout and self-proclaimed "atheist", I propose that for the idea of "free thought", that this too would be just as dangerous as if religion dictated and censored all provisions of education. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Free thought (as implied) allows for exposure to the information, and even practice of that information with responsible approaches. To eliminate any of one side or other that does not specifically compel chaos and corruption, is not supportive of the premise that the Atheist and free-thought proposes to sustain.  In other words, neither should the outright atheism perspective control education.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I conclude with this. In America, we are free to choose, and there are few "christians" that have been forced to accept "religion". In most cases, and by many intellects, religion has been chosen because of "free thought". To assume that the religious are only those "redneck dummy" types in itself a lack of expanded thought equivelant to those rednecks. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Here's the challenge for both sides, and that is that you may choose your thoughts, but to never assume that the other side is lacking thought. That is an exercise that is both difficult and very revealing, for it exposes the truth that most people of any belief, organization or group are not using their full capacity to reason ... and calling yourself an "atheist" is only an escape clause for many to avoid really looking and doing what is preached by simply asking "why" and genuinely considering what they find. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;For those atheists that have looked, some become "believers", because they find that what they were told by and as atheists, is not entirely true, and because they have found that they have a choice. That is the goal and result of free thinking - choice.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this to be an interesting read. However, I see clear assumptions and generalizations made on the whole, when in fact some of the points are not as generalized as implied. </p>
<p>While my time is short (heading out the door), I will say that for the most part, the conclusion is not without it&#8217;s shortcomings. For instance, the assumption of the ten commandments and the line &#8220;thou shalt not kill&#8221;. </p>
<p>For a expanded generalization from the point that they should not commit any acts that would lead to any death, one could assume that even sacrificing animals was included in this. </p>
<p>But a realistic view of this is that these are the laws between Hebrews for a code of conduct to keep the laws of God. Can you really imply that God would prevent &#8220;his people&#8221; from killing when others sought their desimation?</p>
<p>While it is not my intention to simply challange line by line, I will add only one more  oddity of perspective by the writer. There is a drawn conclusion that religion should keep it&#8217;s hands off of the schools. This result still does not leave out the possibility for corruption of ideals, for it required much control of ideologies, and cencorship of concepts that challenge those ideals. In essence, you find that those children will ultimately be &#8220;programmed&#8221; to repel and oppose ideas of religion, and the people that harbor them. While this may be celebrated by many stout and self-proclaimed &#8220;atheist&#8221;, I propose that for the idea of &#8220;free thought&#8221;, that this too would be just as dangerous as if religion dictated and censored all provisions of education. </p>
<p>Free thought (as implied) allows for exposure to the information, and even practice of that information with responsible approaches. To eliminate any of one side or other that does not specifically compel chaos and corruption, is not supportive of the premise that the Atheist and free-thought proposes to sustain.  In other words, neither should the outright atheism perspective control education.  </p>
<p>I conclude with this. In America, we are free to choose, and there are few &#8220;christians&#8221; that have been forced to accept &#8220;religion&#8221;. In most cases, and by many intellects, religion has been chosen because of &#8220;free thought&#8221;. To assume that the religious are only those &#8220;redneck dummy&#8221; types in itself a lack of expanded thought equivelant to those rednecks. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the challenge for both sides, and that is that you may choose your thoughts, but to never assume that the other side is lacking thought. That is an exercise that is both difficult and very revealing, for it exposes the truth that most people of any belief, organization or group are not using their full capacity to reason &#8230; and calling yourself an &#8220;atheist&#8221; is only an escape clause for many to avoid really looking and doing what is preached by simply asking &#8220;why&#8221; and genuinely considering what they find. </p>
<p>For those atheists that have looked, some become &#8220;believers&#8221;, because they find that what they were told by and as atheists, is not entirely true, and because they have found that they have a choice. That is the goal and result of free thinking - choice.</p>
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		<title>By: leyton.org &#187; Brenda&#8217;s 30 days: Well done!</title>
		<link>http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-8015</link>
		<dc:creator>leyton.org &#187; Brenda&#8217;s 30 days: Well done!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-8015</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;[...] It was certainly an interesting, if flawed, programme, and raised the profile of an issue that put&#8217;s the problems here in the UK into perspective (certainly if Rod Liddle is anything to go by). [...]&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] It was certainly an interesting, if flawed, programme, and raised the profile of an issue that put&#8217;s the problems here in the UK into perspective (certainly if Rod Liddle is anything to go by). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nozza</title>
		<link>http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-8011</link>
		<dc:creator>Nozza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-8011</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A nice article and well argued. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;By the way Hitler had a well known belief in the occult and favored a clairevoyant who "predicted" his rise -  a one Erik Jan Hanussen. So hitler was not an atheist. He might not have believed in god for all I know but he did believe in the supernatural and therefore did not base his world view on evidence based knowledge.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A nice article and well argued. </p>
<p>By the way Hitler had a well known belief in the occult and favored a clairevoyant who &#8220;predicted&#8221; his rise -  a one Erik Jan Hanussen. So hitler was not an atheist. He might not have believed in god for all I know but he did believe in the supernatural and therefore did not base his world view on evidence based knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Darlington</title>
		<link>http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-7971</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Darlington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-7971</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Richard, I agree very much with both your critique of the programme and your defence of atheism. I saw the programme and I'll blog about it myself (probably on Sunday!) - I'll be sure to link to your thoughtful analysis.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, I agree very much with both your critique of the programme and your defence of atheism. I saw the programme and I&#8217;ll blog about it myself (probably on Sunday!) - I&#8217;ll be sure to link to your thoughtful analysis.</p>
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		<title>By: Chameleon</title>
		<link>http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-7945</link>
		<dc:creator>Chameleon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 06:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-7945</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Indeed, Richard, you are quite right to mention the history of "religious persuasion" with its attendant bloodthirsty zeal leading to the blood of dissenters/heretics being spilled.  Not to mention the fact that the penalty for conversion to an alternative faith is, at least for the adherents of one major religion, death.  The Inquisition was all about preservation of power and a monopoly over the interpretation of "revealed truth" at all costs dressed up as concern over the spiritual welfare of the victim, ideological conformity extracted in blood.
The rejoinder about Hitler not being a vegetarian does not invalidate your argument about his motivation.
I used to be a born-again, uncompromisingly fundamentalist Christian myself, so I know what I am talking about when I say that belief functions a quilt against the infinite coldness of the universe, a comfort blanket against the futility of existence.
Open-mindedness was not a trait I had much occasion to witness during my years in the fellowship: ultimately, when no counter-argument could be used to convince an opponent, the response was to shrug (maybe sorrowfully, maybe with a twinkle of highly uncharitable Schadenfreude) the unconvinced off as a lost soul, inexorably heading towards damnation (he/she would not be able to escape his/her inevitable comeuppance).
Smugness and the innate sense of superiority of the elect were the underlying sentiments I encountered.  We may be ridiculed and persecuted now, but we will show all our detractors in the hereafter how wrong they were.
The compensatory fantasy of an afterlife promised to those who conform to the rules is more damaging than you give it credit for, however.  It is actively used to deny people (mostly women) rights (full humanity even).  Whereas it can inspire some to acts of altruism and caring for the weak and vulnerable, it nevertheless encourages a mentality of apportioning blame for circumstances (and is not really very forgiving on the human frailty front).  Waiting for a better life after death can afford some hope to those who do not possess the wherewithal to improve their lot, the exploited and oppressed.  Which makes it all the more imperative for those of us who are empowered to do everything in our power to root out social ills.  However, by concentrating on your internal state (sinfulness, purity) and consoling yourself that no matter how wretched your life and that of your fellow humans is now, God will have mercy and compensate you, the temptation not to strive towards changing society for the better is strong.  Atheists have the advantage that they know death equals the extinguishing of consciousness, of the memories accumulated over a lifetime, that human societies are unjust and that no divinely ordained compensation is forthcoming, that we must focus on doing something to alleviate suffering in the here and now.
I might return to this, but I need to catch the train to work right now!&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, Richard, you are quite right to mention the history of &#8220;religious persuasion&#8221; with its attendant bloodthirsty zeal leading to the blood of dissenters/heretics being spilled.  Not to mention the fact that the penalty for conversion to an alternative faith is, at least for the adherents of one major religion, death.  The Inquisition was all about preservation of power and a monopoly over the interpretation of &#8220;revealed truth&#8221; at all costs dressed up as concern over the spiritual welfare of the victim, ideological conformity extracted in blood.<br />
The rejoinder about Hitler not being a vegetarian does not invalidate your argument about his motivation.<br />
I used to be a born-again, uncompromisingly fundamentalist Christian myself, so I know what I am talking about when I say that belief functions a quilt against the infinite coldness of the universe, a comfort blanket against the futility of existence.<br />
Open-mindedness was not a trait I had much occasion to witness during my years in the fellowship: ultimately, when no counter-argument could be used to convince an opponent, the response was to shrug (maybe sorrowfully, maybe with a twinkle of highly uncharitable Schadenfreude) the unconvinced off as a lost soul, inexorably heading towards damnation (he/she would not be able to escape his/her inevitable comeuppance).<br />
Smugness and the innate sense of superiority of the elect were the underlying sentiments I encountered.  We may be ridiculed and persecuted now, but we will show all our detractors in the hereafter how wrong they were.<br />
The compensatory fantasy of an afterlife promised to those who conform to the rules is more damaging than you give it credit for, however.  It is actively used to deny people (mostly women) rights (full humanity even).  Whereas it can inspire some to acts of altruism and caring for the weak and vulnerable, it nevertheless encourages a mentality of apportioning blame for circumstances (and is not really very forgiving on the human frailty front).  Waiting for a better life after death can afford some hope to those who do not possess the wherewithal to improve their lot, the exploited and oppressed.  Which makes it all the more imperative for those of us who are empowered to do everything in our power to root out social ills.  However, by concentrating on your internal state (sinfulness, purity) and consoling yourself that no matter how wretched your life and that of your fellow humans is now, God will have mercy and compensate you, the temptation not to strive towards changing society for the better is strong.  Atheists have the advantage that they know death equals the extinguishing of consciousness, of the memories accumulated over a lifetime, that human societies are unjust and that no divinely ordained compensation is forthcoming, that we must focus on doing something to alleviate suffering in the here and now.<br />
I might return to this, but I need to catch the train to work right now!</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Bass</title>
		<link>http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-7935</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Bass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-7935</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;With regards to this topic started by sb, the point that Rod was making was that you take away religion and genecide doesn't suddenly stop. People seem to do these things in the name of religion, God, Allah, progress, land reforms...&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With regards to this topic started by sb, the point that Rod was making was that you take away religion and genecide doesn&#8217;t suddenly stop. People seem to do these things in the name of religion, God, Allah, progress, land reforms&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-7934</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leyton.org/diary/2006/12/19/a-response-to-the-trouble-with-atheism/#comment-7934</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for the point sb, although &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_of_Adolf_Hitler" rel="nofollow"&gt;Wikipedia has an article on the matter&lt;/a&gt; which sort of implies the issue isn't necessarily one way or the other.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;But it's all besides the point, and merely illustrative: Hitler AND Stalin also had a moustache (I think we can all agree on that one!), but having a moustache did not make them, or anybody else with a moustache, genocidal. They were vile creatures for their own vile reasons. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;They were most certainly &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; doing all of that purely because they were atheist (It's also arguable if Hitler was even atheist himself): Which is a lot more than can be said for some people of a religious persuasion who have killed in the name of religion over the years.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the point sb, although <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_of_Adolf_Hitler" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/outbound/comment/en.wikipedia.org');">Wikipedia has an article on the matter</a> which sort of implies the issue isn&#8217;t necessarily one way or the other.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s all besides the point, and merely illustrative: Hitler AND Stalin also had a moustache (I think we can all agree on that one!), but having a moustache did not make them, or anybody else with a moustache, genocidal. They were vile creatures for their own vile reasons. </p>
<p>They were most certainly <em>not</em> doing all of that purely because they were atheist (It&#8217;s also arguable if Hitler was even atheist himself): Which is a lot more than can be said for some people of a religious persuasion who have killed in the name of religion over the years.</p>
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